Cameryn Smythe
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Post by Cameryn Smythe on Nov 15, 2008 23:21:39 GMT -5
Hey guys, today while cathan, baethor, & myself were talking on the way to dragonspire, they told me about Darkon and how their war fighting system is comprised of some kind of hex grid and a campaign map with territories that are controlled and determined by the outcome of individual battles and such. I was wondering why we don't do something like that here? It could be awesome (or suck...) depending on how its done. Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts about it?
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Post by istvan on Nov 16, 2008 12:31:25 GMT -5
I have many ideas, I sent some to Nichtmar and Brogas (Dunland). My idea is basically using a map as an abstract score board and includes a handicapping system to keep the battles challenging for participants of various experience levels.
My idea is it would be an ongoing contest that would keep us fighting, partying and developing our prowess.
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Post by oof on Nov 16, 2008 19:45:43 GMT -5
In addition i believe Kain is currently drawing up a map for a game similar to this to be played within the realm of MM beginning possibly cometime next year
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kain
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Post by kain on Nov 16, 2008 20:05:14 GMT -5
Yes, I'm nearing completion on something very similar to this. For years we've played something similar to this at Amtgard since one of our members wrote up rules for it. Using those rules, rules from other similar games and some creativity to try and keep them in the spirit of Dagorhir as opposed to those other foam fighting games. I am presently happy with the results, and the members of the council I've spoken with seem to like it too. As for the map itself, it was originally my intention to have a competition of sorts for other people to draw a map given the information we have and we could choose the best one, see here: mittelmarch.proboards43.com/index.cgi?board=rank&action=display&thread=1429However, as there seems to be a lack of interest in doing so, and the rules I've developed rely on the map ending up a certain way I have decided to work on it myself. I am presently drawing some rough drafts on graphing paper which I will be finalizing on a vinyl hexmat that will constitute the final map. Since you've shown interest, I will follow this with an overview of how I've set it up so far.
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kain
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Post by kain on Nov 16, 2008 20:37:00 GMT -5
Ok, so as a foreword of sorts, let me begin by laying down my general direction of thought on this. The main reason to set up a game like this is to lend a feeling of involvement to battles that in turn help contribute to role-play, or they can be made as a competitive game in which people fight over land like it's a board game until someone is declared the victor. Let me give you my experience on this:
About 8 years ago, one of my mentors in Amtgard came out to our park with rules for a game he dubbed AmtRisk. The AmtRisk map consisted of a roughly drawn map of our park we played at that was divided into about 30 territories. Each member of the park could attack territories which each gave different resources weekly that could be used to build structures or raise armies. For instance, a heavily forested area might give lots of timber, while a hilly area might give lots of stone or iron, while fields would give grain. Now, this was fairly fun for me when I first played, but I was basically on the "winning team". Each of the members of our clique would attack different lands weekly and we would work together to ensure each other's safety until everyone was crushed beneath us.
Of course, this was all great fun for us, but not so for everyone else. This killed the first round of the game by the following winter. A couple years later another group had become the big dog's at the park and decided to run it again. Again the same problem ensued, and it died off the following winter. This has occured several times more, the most recent being a few months ago when I and the best fighters at the park made a team that was utterly unstoppable. Since then interest has waned and we haven't played it in several weeks.
So now that I've made this sound like a terrible idea, let me say that I think the potential is there, but the rules we used simply didn't work well. Instead, I'm going to design the system to be run almost like a table-top RPG. That is to say, there will be a map with different locations that can be fought over, but players in the game will have to deal with NPC threats like orcs, bandits, or rival factions. Thus, rather than simply facing the members of the park against each other until hard feelings destroy the game, we can introduce external threats for people to rally together to defeat. This should provide a landscape to better cater to role-playing, while still making it fun for those that simply want to conquer.
With that said, here's the basic rundown:
The map will be a hexmat upon which the map of Mittelmarch and it's environs will be drawn. There will be major locations drawn on the map that can be fought over, representing villages or encampments throughout the Mittelmarch countryside. These locations will be dubbed 'fiefs' as most will represent manors run by local Lords. The players can attack other fiefs by spending money (represented as pounds silver) to move their armies to the other locations. This will represent logistical costs, and certain features like roads will reduce these costs while distance or rough terrain will increase the costs.
As far as combat itself, I did some research on the role-play that has taken place in Mittelmarch in the past. The general prevailing view is that the players of Mittelmarch represent great heroes that have consistently fought back the powerful foes that have threatened the area. With that in mind, I've developed this:
There are 3 basic types of fighters in a battle, which are: Heroes Soldiers Militia
Heroes are simply the players that take part in the battle. In order to play yourself as a hero you must either own a fief or have the hero sponsoring the attack pay extra money for you. This is to help encourage people to attack fiefs, and it makes sense. Basically, this will create a system of infeudation, as the heroes will occupy fiefs (like knights/lords used to) in order to provide military service. Those heroes that do not have fiefs basically don't have a manor supporting them, and therefore require funds simply to support them on the field.
To compensate the cost, heroes will have extra abilities over the normal Dag rules. In the various role-play posts I've seen numerous people wielding magic spells or performing impossible feats. To represent those abilities, the heroes can choose from a list of abilities. These are all very simple but effective abilities, to try and avoid confusion. For instance, you could purchase the ability to heal your comrades as per the Dagorhir rules.
Lastly, heroes represent one person, and so if they fall on the field they do not get to "res" at a respawn point, but must lay where the fall. While fallen on the ground, though, you may still be healed and arise to your feet. Thus, healers will be important.
Ok, so next you have Soldiers. Soldiers are simply like normal Dagorhir fighters. They may use any armour, weapons, or shields. Soldiers represent trained fighters and can be rationalized as anything from town guards to orcs. They are effectively nameless, but limited in number. Every week, a hero/fief recruits a limited number of soldiers and when they are taken to battle the number of soldiers are divided up amongst a few players as lives. That is to say, if a hero has 10 soldiers at his disposal and 2 people to play those soldiers, then each person has 5 lives. Every life lost is permanent and will be subtracted from the total that that hero can bring with him/her in the future.
Lastly, there are militia which function exactly like soldiers except that they are more numerous and weaker. For instance, the aforementioned hero might have 40 militia played between 4 people, so each person has 10 lives. Militia represent weaker troops like goblins or levied peasants, and so they may not use shields or wear armor and will die whenever they are struck legally. That means if you strike a leg or arm they die rather than taking the wound and continuing.
The goal of all this is, of course, to make the heroes, well, heroic. Nichtmar the mighty ogre could cleave through hordes of goblins and fight off a good number of orcs, but he still only has one life on the field compared to the much higher number of his foes.
There are a few more intricacies, but that's pretty much the jist of it. I'll post the official first draft of the rules after I finish the map so I can balance the movement rules.
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Kotaro
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Post by Kotaro on Nov 16, 2008 23:18:15 GMT -5
At first, it seemed a bit convoluted, but as I read on, it seems plausible. I'm all for it. One question, though. How do we decide who's a Hero, who's a soldier, and who's a militia?
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kain
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Post by kain on Nov 17, 2008 7:49:59 GMT -5
Everyone can play themselves as a Hero once per week. Also, it should be rationalized as to what battles you are involved in. If your hero is presently under siege within a castle on the south side of the map, it wouldn't make sense for you to be involved in a battle on the far north side of the map.
And yeah, it's less convoluted than you think. Basically you need to track each player's abilities, their numbers of soldiers and militia, and their income.
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Baethor
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Post by Baethor on Nov 17, 2008 7:52:24 GMT -5
way to not pay attention kotaro.
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Kotaro
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Post by Kotaro on Nov 17, 2008 12:18:52 GMT -5
I was paying attention, and Kain answered my question. Granted, I could've phrased it better, but meh.
And I'm usually not paying attention.
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Cameryn Smythe
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Post by Cameryn Smythe on Nov 17, 2008 16:41:59 GMT -5
ok... so when can we discuss in real time some of these rules and when can we begin to play test them? Also, anyone have anymore refinements to this idea?
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kain
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Post by kain on Nov 17, 2008 19:08:43 GMT -5
Well, you can talk about it now if you feel so inclined. I've basically given you 75% of the rules, though not in the legal style that the final version will be in. In order to finish the rules I need a map, as that will determine how to balance the remaining 25%. I can't very well build a balanced economy without knowing what cities, towns, mines, farms, etc are affecting it, and I can't finalize rules on moving/attacking without knowing the distances between different locations.
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kain
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Post by kain on Nov 17, 2008 19:37:17 GMT -5
Wait, I can give you the heroic abilities I've come up with. That should make for some fun discussion.
So the idea here is that you want to make your character represent the things you display in role-play while on the field. To make this simple, I've divided things into a couple of very simple categories which are:
Quick Strong Tough Mystical
So for instance, someone representing a very fast character, like say Cathan, might be quick, while someone playing a strong character, like Oof, might take Strong. Likewise, another fast character, maybe Kotaro, might also take Quick, while Nichtmar might also take Strong. Each of these characters is taking their ability for a different role-play reason, but in the end it is the same thing. Nichtmar is an Ogre, Oof is a Hill Giant, but for game purposes they are both simply Strong.
So, here's the basic abilities:
Quick: May declare "Dodge" after being struck in combat, thereby negating the attack against them. This may only be used once before it must be 'recharged' by standing still and repeating "Resting" for 30 seconds.
Tough: Receives 1 pt of armor on each location. This is in addition to any armor worn, and this armor is restored if a Heal is succesfully cast on the hero. The only disadvantage is that it is completely useless against green attacks.
Strong: Ok, this is a work in progress. Right now I'm leaning towards the ability to break a shield or ignore armor on one swing, even with a one handed weapon, followed by a recharge similar to the Quick ability. Thoughts on this will be very useful.
Mystical: This is split up into multiple abilities:
Damage Magic: may carry one reusable colored rock, as per the Dagorhir rules. This rock, however, is acts as a red weapon when thrown, thus will count as a hit to a shield or penetrate armor. Simply declare red when it is thrown. The color doesn't matter, and is merely for aesthetics. (so you could be throwing a fireball, lightninng bolt, ice blast, whatever)
Heal: as per the Dag rules
Negation: simple. Completely immune to all mystical abilities. That means Heal, too. This is there for those that don't want to deal with "magic crap", but you sacrifice any possible benefits, too.
Spell Block: may block/catch Damage Magic balls with an open hand or weapon (not a shield). Now, imagine two casters with both Damage Magic and Spell Block, and they can have an epic caster duel on the field throwing and catching each other's magic.
I'm also wanting some kind of protection magic, either to maybe make shields take more red hits, or make armor more effective, or something like that.
I've also got a few ideas on gaining these abilities. Each Hero would start with one, but could buy more somehow. The simplest idea would be to institute some kind of experience system where you basically can buy other abilities with those points. The idea I had, which I am leaning towards, would be in the form of upgrades to your land. For instance, you might build a temple on your fief and thereby gain the ability to Heal. Maybe you're a scholar, and build a library, giving you the option to choose one of the mystical abilities. The problem comes in rationalizing building something that would get you "quick", though I have some ideas.
There, now you have something to discuss.
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Kotaro
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Post by Kotaro on Nov 17, 2008 23:44:21 GMT -5
You could get the "quick" status by buying and building an obstacle course. Strong could be hiring a strength trainer, or building a strength training camp. Tough is trickier, though. Ideas?
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Cameryn Smythe
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Post by Cameryn Smythe on Nov 17, 2008 23:44:57 GMT -5
Alrighty then.... I have a question for you... how about a special ability like Charisma/Leadership/Command? For Heroes whose primary abilities lie in organizing and leading others, this ability could manifest itself in several ways. For Example: Given the Hero/Soldier/Militia example from above, perhaps this means the Charismatic/Leader Hero Can receive a fixed amount of bonus soldiers or militia per battle like say whatever troops they bring they are organized in such a way that fewer troops have to do logistics and supply and more can fight. Pehaps manifesting in a flat +5 per category to troops fielded per battle. I think that perhaps this way those of us who are mundanely human wont have to have mystical, nigh upon unexplainable strength speed or epidermis... Or perhaps after his troops have all died he can call in one more wave of either reinforcements or "bodyguards" to help finish the fight. The last idea for this leadership ability (see I'm making it flexible ) is that you could field/sponsor a hero at no cost or a reduced cost to yourself. Of course to balance this power you will have to declare ahead of time which aspect of it you are using. I find that this could easily be equivalent but not overpowered compared to extra natural armor all over or the ability to ignore on hit every thirty seconds. More thoughts, perhaps instead of every 30 seconds for both quick and strong, a fixed amount of strikes/dodges per battle that cannot be used more closely together than say 5 seconds? My reasoning for this is, not that anyone would ever intentionally abuse their power, right, that some peoples thirty seconds are not equivalent. If you need an example, play ANY game with an individual ten second rez and marshal that game. Again this is an honor system but say if you can use it 5 or 10 times per battle, just not consecutively, I think it would be more fair and more flexible. As for thoughts on mystical... well... its mystical... That being said, I don't mind being killed by magic, but I don't want to need a D20 on the field with me to play Dag. It should be simple and to the point. I don't see a problem with the way it is presented as is, but we should play test some of these abilities soon. Hopefully everyone will have more input... -Cameryn P.S. Kain, we really need to sit down over a beer sometime and discuss this. I run wicked awesome brainstorming sessions.
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Cameryn Smythe
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Post by Cameryn Smythe on Nov 17, 2008 23:47:34 GMT -5
Also, we will need to make sure that we don't get too carried away with these battles that they become unfun for people who are not heroes per se, or who do not want to participate in these war battles... Just saying, were kinda hijacking the game. For better I hope! -Cameryn
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Post by Haldour on Nov 18, 2008 7:24:55 GMT -5
If you guys do a conquest game....Warband will just take it all. =P
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Post by Tachibana Sanjuro on Nov 18, 2008 11:56:57 GMT -5
Oooo....a game for possible cannon fodder! "Great! that's where i'm a viking!::falls asleep:: (gratuitous Ralph Wiggum line)
PS: Are we turning into a Midwest version of Darkon? I've been actually jonesing for some RP chances on the battlefield. On a need-basis, we could say, let's just do dag rules, then when we feel like it, turn to Darkon-Dag mode. I was actually contemplating fighting to RPG music from a CD player and calling it "Arcade Mode". lolz, but please continue with the LARPing!!! XD
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kain
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Post by kain on Nov 18, 2008 14:53:44 GMT -5
I'm going to go to practice at Lawrence Park here in about an hour if anyone wants to talk about this stuff in person. We will likely adjourn to B to the Dub's afterwards, as always.
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Cameryn Smythe
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Post by Cameryn Smythe on Nov 18, 2008 15:35:30 GMT -5
I'm sorry!!! I can't make tuesday practices its at exactly the same time as SCA's Sternfeld Practice. I would lie to meet later this week however. how does thursday work?? -Cameryn
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kain
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Post by kain on Nov 24, 2008 22:16:27 GMT -5
Bleh, I got caught up in family followed by work followed by more family since last Wednesday.
I'll be busy this week and then gone Thursday and Friday, but I'll be back in town Saturday (for work). Sunday night at Lord Ashley's?
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Cameryn Smythe
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Post by Cameryn Smythe on Nov 25, 2008 12:35:42 GMT -5
Sure... the Dunland practice is canceled for the holidays so I should be available. Now where is Lord Ashley's?
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Kotaro
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Post by Kotaro on Nov 25, 2008 15:10:37 GMT -5
Go east on Pendleton Pike from 465 for a while. It's on the right-hand side if you're going east.
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Post by oof on Nov 25, 2008 22:12:21 GMT -5
err you mean washington street right?
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Kotaro
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Post by Kotaro on Nov 25, 2008 22:18:40 GMT -5
That's the way I take to it. Maybe it mutates into Washington, but yeah, that's how I get there.
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Cameryn Smythe
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Post by Cameryn Smythe on Nov 26, 2008 2:35:31 GMT -5
ok... thats pretty specific... how about an address?
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