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Post by deuce600 on Jul 9, 2010 17:10:42 GMT -5
A friend was going to make me a unique dagger/short sword before I moved. His idea was to make a dagger with a slashing side (if thats even a dagger anymore) but have a guard that covers ur fingers so you can more or less punch block, I do believe that is what it is called. But how would you make that guard? I can see just foam without a core being much to weak to take a hit without breaking or hurting your hand. Any ideas?
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Kotaro
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Supporter of Hammer Pants
Shogun
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Post by Kotaro on Jul 9, 2010 17:41:20 GMT -5
Something like this?
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Post by deuce600 on Jul 9, 2010 17:58:30 GMT -5
Yes exactly, he wanted to block with the guard then be able to do a quick counter striker. But i would not know how to make the guard.... Are those dag blades? No way...
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Baethor
High Council
Duk'Rik of the Bri'Ak Duraz.
That which does not kill me, has made a tactical error
Posts: 2,234
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Post by Baethor on Jul 9, 2010 20:21:21 GMT -5
No they're not i think its just an example
The Easiest way would to just duct tape a few strips of foam together then to the base of the blade and grip.
Course if you put in the work i'm sure you could easily layer build a gaurd like that, just wrap it in ducttape or cloth tape to toughen it up.
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Post by deuce600 on Jul 9, 2010 20:31:13 GMT -5
alright, I just dont know how even with 4 or 5 layers of foam and tape would hold up to a full red swing. But thats something that would need to be tested
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Kotaro
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Supporter of Hammer Pants
Shogun
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Post by Kotaro on Jul 9, 2010 20:39:42 GMT -5
Answer: Don't punch block a red at all. Also, two layers should be sufficient, I think.
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Post by deuce600 on Jul 9, 2010 20:49:56 GMT -5
Lol well thank you
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Post by Firoth on Jul 9, 2010 22:23:56 GMT -5
If your going to build a basket hilt type deal for your weapon, I'd like to make a few suggestions: 1. It won't work quite how you expect it too. Punch blocking is a very common tactic within Dagorhir, even if the weapon used doesn't have a basket hilt on it. This is because weapons cannot do damage to a hand holding a weapon, and getting hit in the hand (which is risky medically: Wear padded gloves if you attempt this and NEVER punch block a red) is a very stable block compared to higher up on the blade. 2. Basket hilts get in the way. I love how basket hilts look on real swords, I really do, but I refuse to use them in Dag. I find that even if your handguard is very narrow, it will interfere greatly with your ability to switch grips on your handle. This will make deep wrapshots more difficult, as well as other shots that are more easily thrown with the blade 'sideways.' I'm not saying that it's not something that could be trained with, I just personally haven't had luck using blades with basket hilts. 3. Dagorhir combat is MUCH faster than you think it is. While the idea of someone putting a lot of effort into a swing, committing to it, only to have it punch blocked+retaliation is a great concept, in practice it doesn't quite work. Our weapons weigh at or under 1lb. on average, meaning we can recover from swings extremely quickly, whether we hit or not. If you really want to get good at block+counter strikes as you suggested, I would recommend talking to Rune or some other veteran fighter about something called Block/Strike. This is just a practice routine that increases your speed on counter-swings by working on muscle memory. 4. This one is a suggestion if you do decide to make that basket hilt. Make sure you build the guard INTO the weapon, don't just add it as an afterthought. Attach the initial layers to the core, not to foam. Make sure to reinforce the attachment points, as this is most likely where it will tear. I would suggest using plastidip for a strengthener, but it's rather expensive and takes a little practice to work with. Either way, tearing really isnt a big issue with basket hilts, as most hits your hand area will be taking will be straight into the guard, not sweeping across the basket hilt itself. Only if you block the tip of swords will this happen. Sorry for all the blocks of text. Take my advice or not, I'm just trying to help. ~Firoth
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Post by zalos on Jul 9, 2010 23:26:21 GMT -5
If you want the slashing part to count it will have to be at least 12inches long. In addition the whole thing will have to weigh at least 12ounces to count as blue. Basically a really short sword. If you dont want a slashy side then youll have a very short spear with a handle. lol
If its under a pound its prolly an amtguard weapon.
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Post by deuce600 on Jul 10, 2010 1:47:24 GMT -5
If your going to build a basket hilt type deal for your weapon, I'd like to make a few suggestions: 1. It won't work quite how you expect it too. Punch blocking is a very common tactic within Dagorhir, even if the weapon used doesn't have a basket hilt on it. This is because weapons cannot do damage to a hand holding a weapon, and getting hit in the hand (which is risky medically: Wear padded gloves if you attempt this and NEVER punch block a red) is a very stable block compared to higher up on the blade. 2. Basket hilts get in the way. I love how basket hilts look on real swords, I really do, but I refuse to use them in Dag. I find that even if your handguard is very narrow, it will interfere greatly with your ability to switch grips on your handle. This will make deep wrapshots more difficult, as well as other shots that are more easily thrown with the blade 'sideways.' I'm not saying that it's not something that could be trained with, I just personally haven't had luck using blades with basket hilts. 3. Dagorhir combat is MUCH faster than you think it is. While the idea of someone putting a lot of effort into a swing, committing to it, only to have it punch blocked+retaliation is a great concept, in practice it doesn't quite work. Our weapons way at or under 1lb. on average, meaning we can recover from swings extremely quickly, whether we hit or not. If you really want to get good at block+counter strikes as you suggested, I would recommend talking to Rune or some other veteran fighter about something called Block/Strike. This is just a practice routine that increases your speed on counter-swings by working on muscle memory. 4. This one is a suggestion if you do decide to make that basket hilt. Make sure you build the guard INTO the weapon, don't just add it as an afterthought. Attach the initial layers to the core, not to foam. Make sure to reinforce the attachment points, as this is most likely where it will tear. I would suggest using plastidip for a strengthener, but it's rather expensive and takes a little practice to work with. Either way, tearing really isnt a big issue with basket hilts, as most hits your hand area will be taking will be straight into the guard, not sweeping across the basket hilt itself. Only if you block the tip of swords will this happen. Sorry for all the blocks of text. Take my advice or not, I'm just trying to help. ~Firoth Thanks, I appreciate it
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Post by Firoth on Jul 10, 2010 18:16:09 GMT -5
If its under a pound its prolly an amtguard weapon. 1 lb = 16oz Most good quality light swords weigh around 12oz. :/ Amtgard swords weigh significantly less. ~Firoth
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MacDimm
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Fearghus MacDimm of the White Bear Clan
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Post by MacDimm on Jul 11, 2010 20:58:42 GMT -5
i think "good quality" and "barely passes at the minimum weight requirement so that you can flick it and stay with the rules" are not necessarily related I haven't had a sword of mine ever weigh in under a pound. Anything less and you're into A-game territory gameplay wise. But that's just my opinion.
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Post by Firoth on Jul 11, 2010 21:30:09 GMT -5
I have a sword around 24" long, my green-colored sword. It weighs about 13oz. I built it by removing the blade from an Edhellen short axe, adding a cover, and rewrapping the handle with better rope. By no means an amtgard weapon, and by no means capable of weighing any more without adding a tremendous amount of weight somewhere.
What I mean by Good quality light sword is a 'good quality' (i.e. not made of pvc, blue foam, and duct tape) 'light blade' (a blade designed to be used with speed and finesse). These weapons are legal within our rules, make A-game tap fighting impossible without torqueing your wrist something bad, and can still hit with sufficient force without the need for a tape-wrap to make them easily felt.
I wanna see anyone do an ice-cream scoop without pulling something in their forearm.
I mentioned the weight of the weapon in reference to the fact that Dag weapons are easily able to recover from a blow, being able to throw shots from the elbow instead of the shoulder, and thus committing less into each shot. The average of =/< a pound still stands a very provable measurement from what I've seen in MM and further.
And lastly, just to say. The sword I use, my black covered one, weighs about 16.5oz and moves faster than the 12oz swords I've borrowed from Rune. This is solely because of my balance point being amazing for how I fight.
~Firoth
P.s. The min weight argument reminds me of the movie "Office Space" The scene with the waitress and her manager discussing Flare.
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MacDimm
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Fearghus MacDimm of the White Bear Clan
Posts: 259
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Post by MacDimm on Jul 12, 2010 9:08:07 GMT -5
It reminds me more of Mark McGwire in the late 90's/ early 2000's talking about how taking creatine wasn't illegal, it was just a "performance booster", and what happened to baseball as a whole around that same time. But to each their own. It's all a matter of opinion.
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Baethor
High Council
Duk'Rik of the Bri'Ak Duraz.
That which does not kill me, has made a tactical error
Posts: 2,234
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Post by Baethor on Jul 14, 2010 11:10:47 GMT -5
hey macdimm an zalos, my sword was only 10oz before my counterweighting, now its about 14oz, and i think you'd both agree its neither an amtgaurd weapon and also not "barely passes at the minimum weight requirement so that you can flick it and stay with the rules" and actually does not flick very well...It does hit well though.
@deuce: you would actually only need 2 layers of blue foam at the most for a good punchblocking guard I know people who just use one strip of blue foam as a guard. I would laugh hysterically at a guard built like that with 4 or 5 layers. The wal-mart blue foam is remarkably sturdy for that sort of thing. cloth tape will help remove some of the shock too.
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Post by zalos on Jul 14, 2010 15:11:16 GMT -5
ah that was my bad, I had my numbers mixed up :/
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